MoP

Projekt: MoP
Megnyitotta Prophet - 11.10.2017 20:01
Utoljára szerkesztette: Chris - 14.03.2018 11:51

FS#8364 - Vengeance (yet again)

Hi!

There are currently still significant issues with Vengeance.

It would be great if these could see some work in the near future, at least the major ones, as Vengeance is a critical component of progression, obviously in terms of DPS, but also mitigation/selfheal for tanks, for many guilds (especially 10H progression guilds), as well as for CMs, due to the very high amounts of tank damage and reliance on tank DPS.

POSSIBLE CAUSES:
1. Vengeance does not grant AP using the proper pre-mitigation damage.
– this was confirmed on PTR. We pulled Lei Shi with the PTR buffs ( http://mop-shoot.tauri.hu/?spell=63364 ) active on our characters, and I was getting ~25 (yes, twenty-five) Vengeance per Spray cast on me.
– see the following: http://mop-bug.tauriwow.com/index.php?do=details&task_id=9626
2. Many bosses deal way too little Melee damage and/or hit too slowly. This is most definitely true in many instances (Feng and Sha for example, as well as Vizier and many others), however Windblades in this specific example do seem to deal proper damage, and so does the Empress herself, which leads me to think it has to be caused by something else.
3. Vengeance updates based on DPS Taken, instead of DAMAGE Taken. This results in many mobs/bosses granting even less Vengeance because most of them use swing speeds of 1.5-2.
4. Others, see below.

Below I will go into the actual issues with Vengeance.

Part 1: AP gains.

For my example I will use Grand Empress Shek’zeer’s adds during transition. Specifically the Set’thik Windblades.
I am the tank handling those in my raid group and in all of our attempts and kills since release, the highest AP I’ve been able to get was ~350k (this is including my base AP). I play a prot Paladin, since that is relevant.
On the other hand, Lore from Freak Me Out (on the WoD realm) reported getting close to Vengeance cap (which should be around 700k for them) within a few GCDs.

This means they are getting more than twice as much Vengeance as I am, while tanking the exact same mobs within the exact same encounter.

For further reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1GVEa8VyaI
This video features Paragon killing Grand Empress. You can see Fraggoji’s Vengeance tracker, and he’s getting up to 100k Vengeance just tanking Empress. As a comparison, our Monk and I barely get past 35k while tanking Empress.
I have compared her current melee damage, and it is very close to the values that can be seen in the video, as well as the damage observed in the video I had linked in my original report about Empress’s melee damage.
You can also see him picking up Windblades at the start of transitions and get well over 500k Vengeance while doing so. We do not get to see Sejta’s vengeance however.
For reference, as I mentioned above, I am struggling to get past 350k AP, which is around 300k Vengeance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfsEFiMQww
Random guild killing Will of the Emperor.
The recording tank picks up his boss at ~1:40, and a few seconds later hits a Judgement for ~161k. – Judgement damage in 5.0: 562+ 113.4%SP holy damage
Taking Avenging Wrath and Holy Avenger multipliers into account, he had 181k AP when that hit. This corresponds to around 160k Vengeance.

Similar issues occur on Heroic Sha of Fear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEPxTuIFbGY
This is Sha of Fear, recorded by Absalom of Blood Legion, one of the best prot paladins in the world at the time.
You can see his Vengeance staying at a steady 100k+, and the Thrash at 1’45 brings him to 166k. He also remains at 60k-80k on the platform, with his only damage intake being the Pandaren shooting at him.

It is also likely that Vengeance decay is too fast or wrongly coded.

http://www.sacredduty.net/2012/09/21/matlab-dps-simulations-for-5-0-5-and-q-a/
The above is a blog post by Theck, the well-known theorycrafter.
His calculations use 100k Vengeance in a T14N set of gear (ilvl 496), which proves those levels of vengeance should be realistically reachable in that Tier.

Part 2: Magic/DoTs.

Magic damage, as well as most DoT effects do not grant appropriate amounts of AP.
All of Feng’s DoTs for example, give virtually no vengeance at all. The same can be said for the AoE effects on Grand Empress, as well as quite a few others.
This also includes Protectors’ lightning bolts, and Lei Shi’s Spray, as well as others.

Video of Feng: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMrfS9nxrtw
You can see the tank’s Vengeance, he goes over 70k before even getting his second stack of Arcane shock.
I have personally never seen levels of Vengeance even close to that. We usually hover in the low 30k.

Video of Lei Shi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olHAMZiOi9Y
You can see the recording tank’s Vengeance display. He goes to 80k while the boss isn’t even below 85% yet.
On the other hand, both our tanks struggled to reach 50k at 10% boss HP when she casts up to 90% faster.

Video evidence shows magic damage and DoTs grant increased amounts of vengeance. How much more remains to be determined.
Method vs Elegon 25H: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duTG_92dZgk
Go to 5:30. The video switches to Treckie’s PoV as he runs out to soak a Protector explosion.
Watch his combat text on the left as the add explodes. Treckie’s takes 278191 damage from the explosion (including the absorbed part) and his vengeance increases by 78605, going from 85036 to 163641. This means he got ~15% of the ability’s unmitigated damage (545473) as vengeance, which clearly shows a multiplier added to boss special abilities.
You can also see Elegon’s breath damage at other points in the video giving their tanks vengeance much higher than 1.8% of the ability’s damage.

Part 3: Vengeance decay.

Vengeance decay is incorrectly coded on Tauri. It should not decay at the rate it does currently.
I’m not familiar with the specifics of how to code it, but Vengeance is not supposed to update to a lower stack while a tank is taking increasing amounts of damage.

The first glaring issue with it is that it updates on damage taken, apparently based on DPS taken. This is not how it should update.
Damage taken should grant a stack of Vengeance that lasts for 20s. After those 20s, that stack, and only this one stack, should decay.

Vengeance also seems to update based on DPS taken, as opposed to DAMAGE taken.
Since many mobs/bosses use swing speeds of 1.5-2, this results in even lower Vengeance values.

Video of Will of the Emperor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfsEFiMQww
No Vengeance meter to be seen, however around 2:20 you will see the recording tank hit a Holy Wrath for 140523. – For clarity: HW damage in 5.0: 4300+91%SP holy damage
This damage is equivalent to over 300k Vengeance, and he had those a good 10 seconds after the boss stopped hitting him.

Currently on Tauri, by the time a boss does the third swing on Devastating combo, your Vengeance would have decayed *significantly*. Not only that, but you would never even get close to that amount *while getting constantly hit*.
And if you check the damage that tank is taking, it is very close if not lower than the damage those bosses deal on Tauri.
The non-SotR/blocked hits that tank is taking are close to 200k, which is more or less what they do on Tauri.

Vengeance on Tauri does not only not build corrently, it also decays too fast.

Part 4: Avoidance and Vengeance.

“General
Vengeance should now ramp up more quickly. Avoidance will now grant Vengeance based on the average damage of the avoided NPC auto-attack, instead of just refreshing existing Vengeance. This does not apply to enemy special attacks.”
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/235672-patch-505-hotfixes-november-6/

Based on this hotfix from patch 5.0.5, dodges and parries should not only refresh Vengeance, they should grant Vengeance based on the damage the attack would have dealt.

Part 5: Vengeance and taunts.

Taunting from your other tank in a raid does not grant you any Vengeance.
You should get 50% of their AP on taunt.

Sources TBA.

Lezárta  Chris
14.03.2018 11:51
A lezárása indoka:  Fixed
További megjegyzések a lezárással kapcsolatban  

After crash/restart

Valic-Tauri commented on 12.10.2017 12:16

I have found this link about vengeance:
Wowpedia - Vengeance

In the patches and hotfixes section there is the following entry:

Cataclysm Patch 4.3.0 (2011-11-29): Vengeance has been redesigned slightly. It no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken by the tank generates Vengeance equal to 33% of the damage taken by that attack. In addition, as it updates periodically during the fight, it’s always set to at least 33% of the damage taken by the tank in the last 2 seconds.

I think, this part was not changed afterwards. You can see it in the above linked video too.
Fraggoji taunts the boss and receives an 57467 meele hit from the boss + 15939 dmg is absorbed.
Fraggojis vengence jumps from 0 to 25813 right away.
57467+15939 = 73406
25813*3 = 77439

Is this part implemented on tauri? (I think, that this is not implemented, but I will check it later.)
This also means, that you can’t have less vengence, tahn the 33% of the dmg received in the last 2 seconds.
You can se it in the video between 0:42-0:43.
Fraggoji had 34246 vengeance, but received a huge 131882 meele hit.
His vengeance went up to 44153.
131882*0.3333 = 43956

Valic-Tauri commented on 12.10.2017 18:40

Jeah the 33% vengence from the first(or within 2 sec) thing does not work. We are after a tank switch with 2 seconds.
I received 105k-s with my dk, but the vengeance on me is still 4977.
I should have gained 30k vengeance from this hit.

The other problem is with taunt. Taunt currently does not give the offtank the half of the maintanks vengeance, and this is a bug.
I have 5k vengeance after the tank switch, the other tank probably had more than 10k vengeance. (As proof, there is the overwhelming assault on the tank druid, he even made 72k dps.)

Battle.net - [Guardian] - MoP Tanking Guide (5.4)

When you taunt a target that is currently attacking another tank, you will be given half of that tank’s Vengeance.

Battle.net - Possible Vengeance Changes

And for some reason, most tanks don’t know this. You get half of the other tanks vengeance when you taunt off him. Not ideal, but better than nothing.
Tarko-Tauri commented on 12.10.2017 20:00

Server is runing with 5.0.5 vengence version.

Prophet commented on 12.10.2017 20:11

Vengeance on taunt is not supposed to be implemented in the version of Vengeance we’re using.

As for the 33% in the last 2 seconds, I have no evidence that it should still exist after Cata.

It is possible however, that...
“Instead, the first melee attack taken by the tank generates Vengeance equal to 33% of the damage taken by that attack.”
this part was still active during 5.0.5.

All of this coupled with most bosses hitting like wet noodles... sadness.

Valic-Tauri commented on 13.10.2017 00:54

I just proved with the Dream Paragon VS Grand Empress Shek’zeer 10 Heroic video, that the 33% vengeance was working on 5.0.5, the video was uploaded in 2012 november 15.
Mist of Pandaria expansion was released 2012 september.
Heart of Fear raid was opened 2012 october 30.
This video was made 2 weeks after HoF opening. They received the Realm First achivement for the bosskill at th end of the video.

Nothing indicates, that these things were changed in 5.0.5, or later. These mechanichs were added in cataclysm, and remained in the game even after vengeance was reworked in MoP.

I might have found the proof for the 50% taunt vengeance.
At 0:39-0:40 Fraggoji hits the taunt button, and his vengeance jumps from 0 to 25813. He has not revceived any damage, but still has vengeance.

Then my previou calculation was partly incorrect. He had 25k vengeance from taunt.
Then at 0:41 the first meele hit damaged him 73k, and his vengeance went from 25k to 34k. This is 9k extra vengeance.
At 0:43 he received the second meele hit from the boss, it damaged him 180k. His vengeance went from 34k to 44k. 10k extra vengeance
At 0:49 he received the third meele hit from the boss, it damaged him 138k. His vengeance vent from 44k to 46k. 2k extra vengeance
At 0:52 he received the 4th meele hit from the boss, it damaged him 139k. His vengeance vent from 46k to 49k. 3k extra vengeance

Somehow the first two meele hit added 9-10 extra vengeance for him, and the third and 4th meele hit only avarded 2-3k vengeance.(At this point he was tanking the boss for 10 second, the vengeance loss after 20 sec could not affect these numbers yet.)

Today I was tanking Grand Empress Shek’zeer on normal with my druid.
I was the offtank. Taunting the boss from the maintank gave no vengeance at all.
From the first two mele hit, I received 90k + 110k dmg, which gave me 4500 vengeance.
The third meele hit damaged me 97k, whic gave me an extra 1700 vengeance.

This last vengeance value is totally wrong. If I received 1700 vengeance, taht means, that the unmittigated damage was 94k. This can’t happen, because I just received 97k dmg, and tis value is already reduced by my 66% armor ddmg reduction, and I have an extra 12% phisical dmg reduction from the guardian specialisation. Tauri calculates vengeance from the received dmg, not from the unmitigated dmg.

Patch 5.0.4 (2012-08-28): Vengeance has been reworked and no longer has a cap. Now grants 2% of unmitigated damage taken as attack power for 20 seconds.
Previous effect: Each time you take damage, you gain 5% of the damage taken as attack power, up to a maximum of 10% of your health.

Tauri combines the cataclysm vengeance calculation and the MoP vengeance calculation in a wrong way. It calculates vengeance based on the received dmg, and only gives 1,8% of it instead of the 5% cataclysm value.

Vengeance only cahnged very little between 5.0.4 and 5.4.8, based on the patch and hotfix log.
-Vengeance generated from unmitigated dmg was reduced from 1,8% to 1,5%.
-Vengeance received a cap at the player’s maximum health.
Both of these reduced the vengence values. Based on the maximum health cap limitation, tanks could reach this cap before the fix. (Fraggoji reached 500k vengeance on the empress fight in the add phase.)

Prophet commented on 13.10.2017 01:17

Small correction there.
Vengeance in its original 5.0 iteration was 2% unmitigated damage, which then got stealth nerfed to 1.8% sometime during 5.0.5.
5.4 then nerfed it down to 1.5%.

That’s an interesting find, however it doesn’t entirely explain why I, as a paladin, get a lot less Vengeance than a druid while tanking the same mobs...
Obviously paladins to have slightly more percentage damage reduction than druids (because of SotR/mastery), but it wouldn’t add up to a 40% difference.

Prophet commented on 13.10.2017 05:44

Edited and added some things.

Lore-WoD commented on 15.01.2018 23:40

small thing, but on our first empress kill, i regularly got up to 450k-500k vengeance on Empress adds (sometimes it even went over the vengeance cap and reduced my ap to 1)
all other things have been mentioned in other vengeance-related posts before, and still stand since.

Prophet commented on 04.03.2018 08:54

Edited the Magic damage section with evidence from Method’s Elegon kill.

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